The Trouble with Transgender – Presentation at Radfem Reboot

August 3, 2012

Herstory

Hai! Tribbles are cute when it’s just one, but they are deadly when they suffocate the Enterprise. Analogy!

These are my notes from my presentation at Radfem Reboot, Portland, Oregon. I was going to write a blog post that was more formal, but I am too tired. If you have questions about any of this, please leave a comment.

GROUND RULES FOR MY TALK

1. GENDER IS THE FOUNDATION OF MALE DOMINATION

2. GENDER IS A WAR – A WAR AGAINST WOMEN

3. GENDER IS PERFORMANCE THAT PROVIDES THE FOUNDATION OF MALE DOMINATION OVER FEMALES

4. GENDER NEEDS TO BE DESTROYED IF WE SEEK TO OVERTHROW PATRIARCHY

5. TRANS WOMEN ARE MALE AND TRANS MEN ARE FEMALE

6. WOMEN-ONLY ORGANIZING AND THE ABILITY TO ESTABLISH A BOUNDARY BASED ON SEX IS A KEY COMPONENT OF REJECTING RAPE CULTURE.

7. RAD FEMS WANT TO ABOLISH GENDER, TRANS WANT TO KEEP GENDER BECAUSE TRANS CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT GENDER. THIS IS A HEAD ON CONFLICT IN THE FUTURE OF FEMINISM

8. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ANY OF THESE STATEMENTS, YOU CAN STAY AND REMAIN QUIET OR YOU CAN LEAVE.

“Disrespect is crucial. Disrespect for the cultures, values and institutions of male domination is the very foundation and sine qua non of feminism.” Sheila Jeffreys on religion, equally applicable to gender.

Prior to 1990: Trans was not particularly in with the Gay community. Drag culture, also misogynist, was not Trans. Trans was predominantly understood as Transsexuals. Cross dressing transvestites were mostly understood as something heterosexual men did as a kink.

How did Lesbians perceive Transgender? Janice Raymond, The Transsexual Empire. Lesbian liberation – and female liberation – requires the destruction of men’s power over women.

Lesbian feminism – began its decline in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Now virtually nonexistent.

What is Lesbian feminism? (credit to Sheila Jeffreys)

1. Lesbianism is a choice and an act of resistance to patriarchy – this is rooted in women loving, our politics are erotic and women are irresistible

2. Woman loving

3. Separatism – “women live in a state of atrocity” – Mary Daly

4. Personal is political

5. Rejection of male sexuality

6. Liberation of all women Women need to see each other as women and their common oppression as women – this is disrupted by Trans.

Trans disappears lesbians and gender expression is a tool of the patriarchy. Trans threatens women’s space. Trans entryism into Lesbian spaces.

1991: purposeful effort to develop Trans bill of rights. Included in this agenda was the elimination of sex segregated spaces & the enshrinement of gender (i.e., sex stereotypes) into law. Seeking to legitimate that there are ways of being that correspond (or not) to biological sex.

International Bill of Gender Rights

Susan Stryker, Phyllis Frye, Sharon Stuart and other male to female trans persons who had been heterosexual males

The right of access to gendered space and participation in gendered activity.

“Given the right to define one’s own gender identity and the corresponding right to free expression of a self-defined gender identity, no individual should be denied access to a space or denied participation in an activity by virtue of a self-defined gender identity that is not in accord with chromosomal sex, genitalia, assigned birth sex, or initial gender role.”

THIS REQUIRES THE DESTRUCTION OF WOMEN-ONLY SPACE.

Judith Butler: sexual desire is constructed out of gender difference.

THIS LEADS TO THE ELIMINATION OF SAME-SEX ATTRACTION.

Achieve equality through making gender accessible to all! This sounds nice and liberal and good, and it’s that niceness and liberalness and good-soundingness that has enabled Trans to run roughshod over women.

Trans is the Ultimate Trojan Horse into the Gay Community.

Trans means the end of Gay.

The 1990s saw this plan put into action, with the rise of GenderPAC and other organizations that pushed this, Trans women in particular worked on passing local laws. Trans is a social invention of the last 20 years. NGLTF has been a key figure in this, as NGLTF is the pusher of the overbroad gender identity bill.

Trans were aided by Lesbians who became men, such as Shannon Minter, Paisley Currah, as well as Lesbians who have completely co-signed Trans ideology, including Liz Seaton and Jennifer Levi (both of whom are masculine of center).

What has Trans done to the Lesbian community?

1. Creates a false hierarchy of oppression between cis and Trans. This false hierarchy derails efforts to advance the cause of female liberation.

2. Invisibilizes the oppression of women/lesbians and turns women/lesbians into oppressors of men.

3. Gender is anti-feminist – it is radically inconsistent with a feminist world view. Trans has defanged feminism.

4. Trans is part and parcel of other ideologies that harm women/lesbians – specifically, porn culture and prostitution. We now have “Feminist Porn Awards,” and a Trans woman – Tobi Hill-Meyer – has made a career out of this.

5. Trans has successfully made it “bigotry” to oppose it. There’s a small space for anyone except religious bigots to oppose it. This silences Lesbians who are acutely aware of the pain of being a member of an oppressed minority (i.e., women). Opposing Trans is impossible without a willingness to ensure a loss of community or social power. This is incredibly silencing.

What about gender queer?

There are only so many gay people. That is, putting aside what might happen post patriarchy when it’s abundantly obvious that the only relation women would want to have is a lesbian one (ha ha), we are a limited group. Gender queer allows straight, heterosexual people to claim membership in an oppressed minority.

Being an oppressed minority is a fashion statement in 2012.

Trans also has allow heterosexual people (Trans women who identify as lesbians are heterosexual men) to dominate Gay priorities.

WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK?

Why did Trans entryism work in the Gay community?

Entryism: the practice of members of a particular group joining an existing group with the intention of changing its principles and policies, instead of forming their own group.

1. Gay culture is male identified and misogynistic.

2. With the decline of lesbian feminism in the 1980s, Lesbians in the late 80s, 1990s mimicked gay sex culture and BDSM. Lesbians became “open.” They adopted individualism.

3. The emphasis on Equality. Gay people are well indoctrinated in Equality and respond well to this message. Unfortunately, “Equality”“ invisibilizes the very real differences between men and women, and why women might wants different things, and have different priorities, than men.

4. Gay men have as yet not raised objection to Trans, as Trans focuses their attentions on the Lesbians. Because misogyny, gay men don’t care that Lesbians complain

5. Lesbians are LIBERAL and as good liberal allies, put their needs below those of Trans women (i.e. men). Trans has made incredible strides for a marginalized group, due largely to efforts of the Gay community and willing liberal allies.

Who are the willing liberal allies?

1. Unions – collective bargaining agreements through gender identity in without second thoughts.

2. Women’s Organizations

3. Liberal religious organizations

4. PFLAG

Neo-liberalism/Ultra Capitalism – an ideology made for Trans.

1. Free market economy

2. Minimal state intervention

3. Limited social programming

4. Free trade

5. Strong property rights

6. Privatization

7. Weak unions

Gay is free. Transgender involves selling product. Acquiring stuff, whether it be clothes or makeup or actual body parts, is essential to transgenderism. Transgenderism as an ideology fits into capitalism perfectly.

In academia, neo-liberalism collides with post-modernism. The individual and free choice reign supreme. Sovereignty of the individual becomes the most important. “Everyone can decide for themselves, everything is relative.” Taking a political position against something becomes a judgment; the person taking a political position becomes a bigot. In neo-liberalism, there is no structural inequality and no systems of oppression; groups with collective interests do not see each other or organize with each other. There’s just a lot of individuals making individual choices with lots of self-empowerment (credit to Gail Dines).

Neoliberalism plus post-modernism IS third wave feminism.

Neoliberalism plus post-modernism IS Transgender Ideology.

It proposes that you are born into culture as a free agent (this is false – we are born into a culture with systems of oppression firmly established, and your class dictating how you are treated within that system). Trans requires the destruction of the class of sex, to destroy collective action based on this class and a class-based analysis – it substituted a new “class” of Trans. The ideology of Trans is a product used to control thought.

Where is the Feminist opposition?

Before 2011, feminist opposition occurred in academia, with Sheila Jeffreys and Janice Raymond, among others. However, academia is dominated by Trans supporters. So, it’s a tough road to be an academic and trans-critical/radical feminist. Feminist bloggers have been key in opposing Trans ideology: Fact Check Me of Femonade, Undercover Punk, Lishra of Against All Evidence, Smash the Patriacrhy, No Anodyne, Gallus Mag of GenderTrender. however, as radical feminists, many of the bloggers have no desire to participate in the creation of public policy, as this would require working within the government, which is a patriarchical institution.

I was VERY happy to hear Kathleen Barry say yesterday that we need to work to affect legal change, and that doing so doesn’t make us not radical feminists.

What has happened over the last year?

Spring 2011: In Maryland, a very public fight over the Maryland gender identity bill, which didn’t include public accommodations

April 2011: Beating of Chrissy Polis

May 2011: Radical Hub launches

August 2011: Letter to the United Nations

What did the letter say?

The letter objected to “gender identity” legislation as (1) compromising rational sex-based protections for females and (2) incorporating stereotypical ideas of “what is female” into law. “Gender identity or expression” means includes a person’s actual or perceived gender, as well as a person’s gender identity, gender-related self image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression, whether or not that gender identity, gender-related self image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression is different from that traditionally associated with the person’s sex at birth.

Written from a Lesbian perspective: “As lesbians, we are concerned about the impact of this legislation on our community, and our community’s ability to meet free from male influence and involvement.”

Written from a Female perspective: ”More importantly, as females, we are concerned that in the attempt to provide protections for a few, we will compromise the protections of the many.” Preserving women-only space: The proliferation of legislation designed to protect “gender identity” and “gender expression” undermines legal protections for females vis-à-vis sex segregated spaces, such as female-only clubs, public restrooms, public showers, and other spaces designated as “female only.” Females require sex-segregated facilities for a number of reasons, chief among them the documented frequency of male sexual violence against females and the uniquely female consequence of unwanted impregnation resulting from this relatively common form of violence.

Public policy, therefore, rationally permits sex segregation in certain settings where a reasonable expectation of privacy exists. “We cannot deny the implications of this legislation – and the radical shift in priorities it represents for females. Female reproductive vulnerability has a long history of exploitation by males in the form of sexualized violence. As attorneys, as females, and as lesbians, we seek legal recognition and protection for the potential harm that females may experience because of our reproductive vulnerability.”

Every state in the United States plus the District of Columbia has adopted a law that bans discrimination based on sex in employment, housing, and public accommodations, among other areas of public life. These “Anti-Discrimination Laws” stand as evidence of a public policy statement against irrational discrimination, which has no place in a free and open society. However, each of these Anti-Discrimination Laws also preserves an exception to the general policy against discrimination with regard to sex-segregated facilities. These exceptions operate as an admission by that state that females have an interest in sex-segregated facilities. The definition provides no objective standard by which to assess the legitimacy of the “gender identity.” Rather, it merely requires the person seeking protection to assert that he or she identifies as the sex opposite his or her sex at birth.

It allows all males – including registered sex offenders or males subject to a domestic violence order of protection – to assert “gender identity” as a means to invade female-only space. State laws that permit discrimination in sex-segregated facilities based on sex allow a person asserting gender identity as a basis to avoid “discrimination” access to sex-segregated spaces based on their chosen “gender identity” – without regard to any action taken on the part of that individual to change their physiology to “become female” (i.e., sex reassignment surgery.) Gender identity laws provide a legal basis for males to be in sex-segregated space. It is well-documented that males as a class have a demonstrated history of harming females as a class by exploiting female biology (i.e., rape, sexual violence, unwanted pregnancy).

Accordingly, definitions of “gender identity” that permit the individual to “self-identify” without any duration or medical documentation requirements present the potential for a human rights violation against all females. Sex stereotyping: A legal definition of “gender identity” that suggest or codify into law that there are ways of expressing one’s self (or behaviors or appearances) “consistent or congruent with biological sex” present a risk to females, as such definitions codify the notion of stereotypes based on sex into law.

Traits stereotypically assigned to females – such as care-taking, emotionalism, and weakness – have served as sufficient legal justification for women’s exclusion from employment, participation in government, and many other critical social functions. Archaic stereotypes are directly responsible for the denial of female credibility and intellectual authority, in addition to causing the historical marginalization of females, lower social status vis-à-vis males, and lack of power to engage equally with males. Even where law has evolved to formally prohibit sex-stereotyping; women continue to suffer from the lingering effects of sexist ideologies about female inferiority. So although we support every individual’s right to freely express their gender identity, it is absolutely critical that law not confuse “feminine expression” with female reproductive capacity or female genital presentation.

“Gender identity” laws that codify the notion that there are traits, manners of expression, or modes of appearance that are inconsistent or consistent with one’s biological sex violates United Nations conventions seeking to eradicate sex stereotyping.

August 2011: Trans invades MichFest. GenderTrender post blows this up.

December 2011: MRA attack of the Radical Hub, Trans notices and starts allying with MRAs.

January 2012: NGLTF agrees to allow Lesbian Caucus in response to the lack of lesbian representation at Creating Change. GenderTrender blows this up.

February 2012: SPLC piece on MRAs.

March 2012: The Cotton Ceiling. Fact Check Me blows this up, but Gallus Mag at GenderTrender first noticed it.

April 2012: SPLC follow up on MRAs and the Hub – quoting me, known transphobe, generated huge Trans response.

June 2012: Radfem 2012 gets harassed out of Conway Hall

June 2012: Dyke March

July 2012: Radfem 2012.

July 2012: Radfem Reboot.

Onward, Radical Feminists!

Young women are hungry for community that represents their lives and speaks to their realities. Radical feminism does this.

NEVER stop talking and never stop listening to women.

I think we are doing pretty well considering we have NO academic or institutional support. I get emails, text messages and phone calls from women across the country. Like this one:

Cathy, I just wanted to thank you for everything that you’ve done for women, and also apologize for the fact that I didn’t realize it sooner and gave you a teensy bit of shit about it. For whatever reason, when I first got a Tumblr I started following many trans bloggers, and started drinking the Kool-Aid on what I know now to be a misogynistic, homophobic type of feminism (third wave? fourth wave? something awful). I never read any of the counter arguments, and at first it seemed like I could easily believe everything they were telling me because they could be genderqueer/pangender/agender/whatever and I could stay a lesbian and their dysphoria wouldn’t be my problem. And, of course, you were constantly vilified and I sent a couple nasty asks to your old account without even thinking about the logic you were making, which I sincerely apologize for. Then the cotton ceiling thing happened, and that horrified me. I’m a bigot because I don’t like penis? What? I felt guilty and ashamed about my supposed transphobia for months before I started finally reading your blog for myself. I, a lesbian that had overcome so much to come out in the first place, felt guilty for not liking dick. The irony! But your blog helped me get over that within days. You give a voice to females, and the value of that truly cannot be overstated. I can understand why males with vagina-envy hate you, but what makes me upset is that there are still so many women out there like me that buy into “cissexism” for fear of looking like bigots, but then get coerced into supporting people that care more about their elitist gender identity than about the oppression of millions of females worldwide. Anyway, I just wanted to say sorry for fighting for the other side for so long– it’s very embarrassing to realize that you were railing against someone that was on your side. I hope Tumblr doesn’t delete your new blog, we can hope that the more people that actually read it, the more support you will gain. I wish you all the best. If it’s any consolation, I saw you mention Rachel Maddow a few days ago, and I went to her book signing in DC and she mentioned that she’s a lesbian feminist, so if I’ve wikipedia-ed correctly I think that means she’s on our side :) and doesn’t Rachel always win?

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About Cathy Brennan

Gender Atheist.

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94 Comments on “The Trouble with Transgender – Presentation at Radfem Reboot”

  1. Kataka Gara Says:

    WOW. I just discovered this blog through facebook, through a Max Dashu post. This is incredible. I consider myself a Female Supremacist and I am not shy about it. I owned a Women-only safe sex club in San Francisco in the 90′s and I did allow transwomen into the club but only if they were 100% post operative. I got talked into allowing a few partially “passing” transwomen into the club a few times. Although nothing happened, I felt regret afterwards, as I felt deep in my heart that they still had “boy’s bones and brains”. Never again. A “reboot” of my club will be starting soon and I plan on keeping the space womyn-only. Thank you and I will subscribe to your posts!

  2. ethicalequinox Says:

    I like the timeline.

    Progress, we has it.
    :D

    • janejane0 Says:

      Thank you Cathy. As usual, your insight and analysis continues to transform the way I see this issue. You area great teacher, and damn brave one at that.

  3. weiiixin Says:

    Thank you Cathy!!! As usual, your insight and analysis continues to transform the way I see this issue. You area great teacher, and damn brave one at that.

  4. Mykell Shih Miller Says:

    Hmmm…. so as a trans man, you think I should be allowed in women-only spaces? Because that doesn’t sound like a man invading a women-only space.

  5. Robert Collins Says:

    So why should anyone engage you in any kind of debate if you’ve set ‘ground rules’ which are not open to critique? How can you claim to hold any sort of intellectual high ground when the only critiques of your thesis have to follow your strict, narrow interpretation of gender constructs and philosophy?

    You’ve set your position up to be unassailable and unfalsifiable. It reaks of intellectual dishonesty- this kind of control and manipulation of language is the foundation of cult like, dogmatic behaviour that is detrimental to any kind of progressive movement, be it LBGT, feminism, or otherwise.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      I can’t be bothered to respond to you, sir. Here is what a friend said: “call the wahhh-mbulance, dood doesnt like your boundary. LOL what else is new.”

      Nice haircut: https://www.facebook.com/rncollins#!/photo.php?fbid=10151185030965433&set=a.10151136907200433.797378.539560432&type=3&theater

      • Sydney S. P. Says:

        Wow you’re just a bully aren’t you. You can’t be bothered to respond to his comment, but you can be bothered to find a picture of him on facebook and make fun of him? That’s a logical fallacy if I’ve ever seen one.
        People aren’t worth anything to you unless they have a uterus. You maintain that sex-segregated washrooms are necessary to protect women. That’s fine, I agree with that, but when you don’t let trans-women in and force them to use men’s bathrooms you’re putting them in danger. Plus how often do police get involved with bathrooms? It’s not like the only thing stopping men from hanging out in the women’s toilets is fear of the law. I think most men don’t go in the women’s bathroom because they identify as men and allowing trans-women into women’s bathrooms is not going to put anybody in danger.

      • bugbrennan Says:

        Oh, I am a bully for deciding to not respond to a comment THAT I PUBLISHED on my own blog? Interesting.

      • Robert Collins Says:

        How surprising, you don’t address my perfectly reasonable questions and you make fun of my haircut. An old haircut at that. I’m rather flattered you bothered to spend your precious time browsing my Facebook, but it should be adamantly clear the lack of privacy restrictions on my Facebook profile mean I have nothing to hide- so I’m not exactly sure what you were attempting to prove. I guess it’s just slightly more productive than spewing hate and vitriol at the trans community- and I’m glad I warranted distracting you from that for a time. I’ll let you think you stabbed at the heart of my emotions though; I guess I couldn’t expect more from a blogger who actually prides herself on the fact that “I think we are doing pretty well considering we have NO academic or institutional support.”

        It’s generally not a good idea to pride yourself on a lack of support from the academic community. It’s basically equivalent to priding yourself on ignorance, and you place yourself in the same boats as idiotic anti-gay/lesbian and biotruths types. I don’t mean to suggest that academia need be dogmatic or unchallenged, but if you have literally no support you might want to rethink your position.

        I hope you realize that while the progressives tear themselves apart arguing over these pitiful in-squabbles, the political right are united and talking about killing gays, putting them behind electric fences, restricting access to essential care for women, dismantling Planned Parenthood, and slowly chipping away at women’s rights.

      • Yisheng Qingwa Says:

        Oh, snap. Spot on. Man doesn’t like boundaries, so have a MANTRUM. Yeah, really: nice haircut. WHEATIES. That is all. XD

  6. J Sweeney Says:

    The whole Trans Gender-ism as an ideology fits perfectly into Capitalism is literally the dumbest fucking thing I’ve read in my whole life and you should seriously consider seeing a therapist or reading a book or something. I don’t even know.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      *cough*surgery*cough*hormones*cough*lifetime dependence of doctors*cough*

      What book should I read?

      Gotta get that cash money. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAOUbr2HEpo

      • J sweeney Says:

        Yeah, medicine and surgery that enables you to live a more fulfilling life makes you lesser than. Would you be bold enough to say the same thing to someone with cystic fibrosis? Or perhaps more appropriately, is it wrong for someone with vitiligo to have their skin equally de-pigmented so they don’t have to have blotchy skin coloration?

        Why don’t you give trans* people the benefit of the doubt that their birth physiology is incorrect? Actually, what do you think of hermaphodites? Are they less than real whichever sex they become because they had to have surgery. Not believing people and disrespecting their agency by ascribing your own ideas to them is quite the slippery slope.

        Also, the book thing was just a figure of speech. If you really are looking for a good book to read though, go get any from your public library. Extra points if you walk/cycle/bus there.

      • bugbrennan Says:

        Why do you think gender identity is innate?

  7. dirtinka_krapova Says:

    Hello.
    See, Cathy, it’s not that you’re wrong per se (many of your criticisms of the concept of trans and conceptions of male dominance I agree with), it’s more that you fetishize trans women. Like the racist or homophobe who obsessively criticize people whose lives they misrepresent. You render trans women with no depth. You are using an unfair caricature as basis for a policy of exclusion. Based on your experience or not, that is exactly bigotry.

    I’m not saying we trans women are perfect. I recognize that you have a point. We trans women have a lot of our own work to do. I claim that the gaps in trans women’s self-organizing have been related to the fact that we have been focussing primarily on surviving. Someday when we don’t have to spend so much time focussing on housing, employment, health care, who will date us, and not getting literally killed in the street, I’m sure you will see luxuriant things like our own radical theorizing and land projects. Excuse us for looking toward your movement for alliance.

    I do have a few questions:
    Do you realize that official trans exclusions privilege stealth trans women (people who may have gone to the furthest depths and highest costs to realize their womanhood)?

    Do you look with suspicion upon non-”normatively”-bodied women? Like do tall women get your trans-dar all pegged?

    And why did you include the beating of Chrissy Polis and exclude the murders of Camila Guzman, Shelley Hillard, Cassidy Nathan Vickers, Coko Williams, Paige Clay, or Brandy Martell? All of which occurred in the last year in the US alone.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      Fetishize: Have an excessive and irrational commitment to (something).
      Make (something) the object of a sexual fetish.

      No. You’re gross and missing the point. As usual.

      Write your own blog post and say all the things!

      • dirtinkakrapova Says:

        Not a sexual fetish, of course. An ideological one. You have a irrational excessive commitment to representing trans women as one-dimensional. Sorry if that word is gross. I realize it’s connotation. But your level of aversion to a complex, evolving response to male dominance certainly appears as such.

        Be well.

  8. Kate Says:

    I’m using the Oxford dictionary definition of the word “gender”.

    “Definition of gender
    noun
    1 [mass noun] the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):
    traditional concepts of gender
    [count noun] the members of one or other sex:
    differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age”

    Is there another definition of gender that you’re referencing? How can there be “woman only” spaces without gender? Please explain.

  9. bugbrennan Says:

    Sex is not gender. Sex is not gender. SEX IS NOT GENDER.

  10. Kate Says:

    Then it seems that your blog is based on sex stereotypes.

      • J sweeney Says:

        If there was no concept of gender would it be any more or less evil to you for people to switch sexes purely on a physical level?

      • bugbrennan Says:

        Nope. I support the right of people to be transsexuals.

      • J sweeney Says:

        Also, gender identity is probably about innate as sexual attracrion. trans and homeosexuality botb prob hace a few biological causes, but are both provably largely social. However, just because something is social doesnt mean it should change. Gay men feel attracted to other men, not specifically their genitalia. Trans people identify differently than they were born, and that deserves just as much respect as being attracted to people of the same gender.

        Basically what i’m saying is gender stereotypes are awful and do cause a lot of problems, but gender is a valid thing and important part of self identity.

      • bugbrennan Says:

        Female is not an identity. KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL PLEASE.

  11. demonista Says:

    hahaha, so according to commenters gender and sex are interchangable, therefore antigender feminists are hypocrites for talking about females. stunning logic. by talking about sex we are reifying gender. what silly feminists we are. Really, how DARE we make a line based on sex in some instances when we are immersed in patriarchy while opposing gender? The ONLY way this makes sense is if sex does not exist but gender does.

  12. Justice Redefined Says:

    Feminism 101

    No feminist would ever agree to give up the right to have female only spaces.

    Gender refers to socially constructed roles, behaviors and expectations which are based on biological sex.

    Sexism is projecting and enforcing gender expectations; requiring women to be “feminine” and men to be “masculine”.

    Feminists want to destroy gender expectations not match them up with external genitalia.

    A gender essentialist is someone who thinks that sexual organs and gender should be matched up. That is the antithesis of feminism.

    Female only space is not intended as a gathering place for people who express feminine traits as defined by the patriarchy or for people who feel female.

    Female only spaces are based on biology, not gender roles or gender expression which are fluid.

  13. SheilaG Says:

    I guess we just need to send people back to biology 101. Female is not an identity, it is about being biologically female, with significant physical characteristics, chromosomes etc. Why is this so hard for genderists to get? And as Sonia Johnson wrote, gender is not a bionary, it is a hierarchy, with males dictating the terms of “presentation” to the slave class known as biological females.

    When biological females declare complete freedom from the dictates of male biological people, we are attacked, cornered, threatened with death etc.

    It’s the difference between the genderist’s idea of “feminine” vs. female; a biological category. And no amount of plastic surgery and “feminine posturing” is going to change this. No amount of playacting is going to get at the need of lesbians to be in solidarity and community with one another free of “genderist’s derails” and male desire to erase FEMALE as a biological term. They are trying to do this often enough, and clarity is needed in ending this confusion.

    Remember, the most powerful word women can say to genderists and males is NO.

    • J sweeney Says:

      Ok, so let me get this straight. You think gender is meaningless right? You think that biological males and females should be treated exactly the same throughout life, even in developmental stages? You do realize there is more to gender identity than buying a pretty pink blouse or whatever. Seriously, this same argument can be said for gay or lesbian people, since their attraction is based on gender.

      Really, you guys are just biggots who are doing mental olympics to justify to your own selves why it’s ok to hate trans people. You’re still looking at things from within our current patriarchy ironically enough, and you really should grow up. There’s a reason why trans haters like all of you are a minority in the feminist community, it’s because you’re a bunch of hateful jerks.

      • Justice Redefined Says:

        “Seriously, this same argument can be said for gay or lesbian people, since their attraction is based on gender.”

        No it isn’t. Their attraction is based on biological sex. That is why “the cotton ceiling” exists. They want to have sex with biological women not theoretical women.

        If it were based on gender lesbians would want to have sex with feminine gay males.

        “You think that biological males and females should be treated exactly the same throughout life, even in developmental stages?”

        I think biological males and females should be treated the same through-out life especially in developmental stages. Obviously there would still be differences based on biological differences and the existence of the patriarchy.

  14. SheilaG Says:

    Hateful jerks, very sophisticated thinking here. Yeah, that about says it all when women want our own spaces, unmolested by bio-males in dresses. When women define what we want our lives and politics to be, when we face hate and death threats from bio males, it really is still male supremacy in its newest dress up phase. And what about lesbians being cornered at a Dyke March, which was started for lesbians in the first place? How is not wanting men to define us or add Cis or whatever stupid male endings they come up with about hate? It’s about lesbian soverighty over our own culture, our own sexuality, and it has nothing to do with male sexual entitlement over female bodies, sorry no penis people at the parade. You’re just going to have to have your own worlds, and you’re going to have to get out of lesbian spaces. You are not welcome, you have nothing to offer us, other than male political derailment. It’s a worthless political situation for radical lesbian feminists, we’ve got other things to do with our time.

  15. Kate Says:

    There isn’t just one way of being a “feminist”. No one person decides what feminism is. There have always been and always will be many forms of feminism. What you describe, Justice Redefined, reads more like fascism… and is just about as popular as fascism. And the most outspoken radfem advocates use the same kind of political techniques as fascists… finding a community that’s more disempowered then themselves (in this case the trans community) and vilifying them as much and as often as possible, pinning all the worlds ills (in this case the patriarchy) onto them alone. It’s shameful, considering who threw the first shoe at Stonewall. People aren’t against “radfem” because they’re anti-feminist… they’re turned off because at it’s base, the theories radfem go against the evolutionary insights of so many contemporary social justice movements in the USA. Radfems will continue to organize (just as many other supremacist groups are free to do) but I’m certain that they’ll always be a minority fringe within the world of feminism.

    • Justice Redefined Says:

      All forms of feminism have at their core the absolute right of free association between females without the presence of males. If it doesn’t. It’s not feminism.

      The idea that lesbians shouldn’t have the right to exclude biological males from their gatherings is not feminist. Just because someone claims to be a feminist doesn’t mean they are one. Being or not being a feminist is dependent on supporting the rights of biological females.

  16. Kate Says:

    FYI- the NYC dyke march has always been an inclusive public event. If you want to start a dyke march that’s separatist, go ahead and start one. I chose to march along side with my friends who care for me and are good allies. I could care less about what’s between their legs, I’m much more interested in what’s in their heads and their political activism. Also, no one was “cornered” or “assaulted” at the NYC dyke march. I was there and saw it myself. Some women tried to have a political conversation after the march with some other women who identify as radfem. It made the radfem women very uncomfortable so they screamed some insults at some of the organizers of the dyke march and then decided to walk away. Which they did. It was a heated public conversation in a public place and nothing more.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      Hai! Which asshole were you when I felt assaulted and harassed by non-dykes at a fucking dyke march?

    • Justice Redefined Says:

      I saw the video. That was not an attempt to have a political conversation. The trans queer brigade cornered Cathy because they wanted her to apologize for having a Sheila Jefferys sign. Cathy had no intention of renouncing her support for Sheila Jefferys or apologizing for anything. So, the trans queers decided they had the right to harangue Cathy. That is not a political conversation. “You made my girlfriend cry” is not political conversation. They were flinging accusations at Cathy not having a conversation with her.

  17. OMGVBFLOL Says:

    “Let’s make fun of haircuts and respond to reasoned challenges with low-effort shitposting, then they’ll take TERFs seriously.”

  18. Amy T Says:

    1. GENDER IS THE FOUNDATION OF MALE DOMINATION
    Agree.

    2. GENDER IS A WAR – A WAR AGAINST WOMEN
    Agree.

    3. GENDER IS PERFORMANCE THAT PROVIDES THE FOUNDATION OF MALE DOMINATION OVER FEMALES
    Agree.

    4. GENDER NEEDS TO BE DESTROYED IF WE SEEK TO OVERTHROW PATRIARCHY
    Agree.

    5. TRANS WOMEN ARE MALE AND TRANS MEN ARE FEMALE
    Disagree. Gender identity is not gender. You’ve conflated the two concepts. I can see how it could be a easy mistake because they both have the word “gender” in them, which is perhaps unfortunate, but then again most people seem to have figured it out with little effort.

    6. WOMEN-ONLY ORGANIZING AND THE ABILITY TO ESTABLISH A BOUNDARY BASED ON SEX IS A KEY COMPONENT OF REJECTING RAPE CULTURE.
    Agree. As long as women-only includes all women, including trans women. Feminism is either for ALL women or it specifically misogynist.

    7. RAD FEMS WANT TO ABOLISH GENDER, TRANS WANT TO KEEP GENDER BECAUSE TRANS CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT GENDER. THIS IS A HEAD ON CONFLICT IN THE FUTURE OF FEMINISM
    False. Myself and many others like me want to destroy gender too. Remember, gender is not gender identity.

    8. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ANY OF THESE STATEMENTS, YOU CAN STAY AND REMAIN QUIET OR YOU CAN LEAVE.
    All bigotry needs to flourish is for good people to say nothing.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      Oh, do tell, what’s the diff between gender and gender identity?

      • Amy T Says:

        We both know and agree on what gender is. Gender identity then is a component of a person’s identity that seems to play a role whether or not they experience body dysphoria on the basis of their assigned sex. I’m being deliberately and necessarily broad here because it is not currently known if this component is driven by nature, nurture, or a some combination thereof. Personally I don’t think the etiology is important at all to this discussion. Gender identity then does not have anything to do with gender roles or biological essentialism. It is simply a useful theoretical concept to talk about when discussing issues as they relate to cissexuals versus transsexuals.

      • bugbrennan Says:

        No. Gender identity doesn’t exist.

  19. SheilaG Says:

    Yeah what is the difference between gender and gender identity? And women have a perfect right not to want penis people in our spaces, or bio males. Inviting them in is actually endangering other women, and the hardest thing for women to do is to support other women. Lesbians need to spend time working on the issues and culture that is in our own best interest, and radical feminism is not about males, it is about women’s liberation from the oppressive rules of gender that are male enforced by rape, tradition and the entire legal system.

    Trans is merely another male distraction, and it has nothing to do with the rights of women or our right to freely associate with biowomen.
    Trans have no place in lesbian groups, but there is a place in the larger LGBT community for these discussions.

    And no, we don’t want males marching in the Dyke March, we do welcome male allies on the sidelines, but the march is for Dykes, and last I heard Dyke means lesbian, not trans. Sure trans are invading lesbian spaces, because they wouldn’t be allowed to pull this threatening cornering stuff on males.

    And Cathy was cornered and threatened by a group of trans and trans supporters, it was five or six trans vs. ONE Cathy, and anyone with any brains can see this clearly on the video. To threaten and to force organizations to exclude Sheila Jefferys, and to erase solid lesbian feminists like Mary Daly, Jan Raymond and others is simply male attempts to shut down radical lesbian feminist dialogue, herstory and political theory. That’s the whole point of trans, derail women only political space, and derail the work of several generations of pioneering radfems, because that is what men do. They threaten women, they corner women, they try to exclude a Dyke from a Dyke march, and it is a gang of bullies yelling and threatening Cathy. I don’t see gangs of radfems doing this to Trans, and I don’t see radfems threatening trans with death.

    What I see is male supremacy yet again, and we are not going to stand for it. Trans is going to be exposed for the political fraud it is, and for its derailing of feminist activism. And no thank you, I’m not working on the trans band wagon, I see no common ground with this ground, and the whole thing creeps me out as a woman.

  20. Kate Says:

    I watched the Dyke march videos again. I had seen them before, and as i posted earlier I was there that evening and had witnessed this heated conversation. I noticed that on the video footage the moment when you said “I don’t feel like having this conversation anymore.” and freely walked away had been edited out. Why? Also, you aren’t “cornered”. You were in a public park, had allies on both sides of you and could have walked away any moment you wanted to, which you eventually did. You smile and laugh quite a lot during this video, when you aren’t screaming or insulting people (an odd response to an “assault”, no?) As you probably noticed while in the park, there were many police officers around. There is also a large NYPD mobile control center on the south side of the park. This mobile center houses monitors for the many security surveillance cameras which are located though out the park. But you didn’t approach the police to report the alleged “assault” that you felt had happening to you during that discussion. The police didn’t notice anything that caused them enough concern to walk over and see what was happening in that part of the park. Everything that happened during the conversation would have been visible via these security cameras and by the park’s NYPD patrol officers (who I noticed not standing very far away, looking a bit bored.) They must have seen the same thing I saw and what’s clear from the vimeo footage, a very heated political conversation. This isn’t against the law in NY state. So, instead of reporting your alleged “assault”, you wait a day or two and blog about it. Adding that you were (allegedly) “stalked” and “followed” to a nearby restaurant where you were “harassed”. This is really laughable. I was sitting at the table of that restaurant (near the front window, clearly visible from the sidewalk) with the woman you later posted a photo of with the caption “unknown restaurant stalker” and 6 other people. We had arrived 20 or 30 minutes before you came in. As a matter of fact, we had already ordered and were eating when you walked in with several women. Your table wasn’t in the same room as ours was and no one from our table approached your table or spoke to you or anyone seated at your table. Yet you call this “stalking”? As I said, we were sitting and eating at a table by the front window when you chose to enter the restaurant by your own free will. No one stalked you and no one from our table talked to you or anyone at your table. You’re grasping at straws trying to play the “victim” role at the NYC dyke march. Your behavior clearly shows that as does the video footage and the fact that you didn’t make a report to the NYPD. Please, why not start a dyke march in Baltimore? You can organize it however you and your political allies see fit. The NYC dyke march has always been inclusive and always will be. If this is offensive to your political beliefs then you’re free to make the choice to not attend our march.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      LOL, editing out? Um, no. And who are you?

    • Justice Redefined Says:

      Verbal assault is still assault even if it isn’t illegal.

      No one wanted a philosophical discussion on the difference between woman and female. It was clearly the desire of the participants to berate Cathy for her views not discuss them with her. One of the participants even said that she had “given Cathy a chance to apologize” for having the Sheila Jeffery sign. That is confrontation not conversation.

  21. Kate Says:

    Yes. You did walk away from that conversation in the park when you wanted to… I saw it myself and it was on one video clip that was posted a few days after the march but later deleted. Lying about it doesn’t change the facts. But hey, the “unknown restaurant stalker” comment gave a lot of us a big laugh! Because no one at the restaurant came anywhere near you and you entered after we did. Many witnesses to that lie, 7 people at our table and 8 more friends at another table (who were also there before you came in.) Who am I? Well, you already googled me and posted a photo so why are you asking? (ps. but I noticed you didn’t chose to post the photo of me and Kate Millet hanging out together… hmmm.)

    • bugbrennan Says:

      You’re a funny lady. And a liar. Anyone can watch the videos.

      I also thought the restaurant stalker meme was funny. I didn’t make it. Your friends are assholes for sure.

  22. Kate Says:

    But you aren’t responding to the fact that you weren’t “assaulted” or “stalked” at any time during or after the dyke march. If you had really felt that was what happened, and you had “proof” on video why didn’t you try to press charges?

    • bugbrennan Says:

      Look at you, patriarchy lover.

      The statute of limitations hasn’t run out and there’s video evidence.

      Which asshole were you, Kate?

  23. Steph Says:

    I love you Cathy. You have my full support against these misguided transgender people. They really are lost and are “worshipping” gender in a way in an attempt to find some kind of purpose in life. They do this without realizing the harm they are doing to FAABS.

    Transgender people need to realize that they will forever be different from the FAABS (and MAABS) they try to emulate. This doesn’t make them inferior, just different, and these different groups need time away from each other as well as together.

  24. Kate Says:

    Well, can tell you who I’m not… I’m not a lawyer with clients like; JP Morgan, Bank of America and Capital One. You can call me a “patriarchy lover” all you want, but I’m not working for the benefit of rich white male CEOs of these companies, you are.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      Yes. Because in your feminism, women should not have power or money, and they should certainly not use it to help women.

      You serve men! Well done!

  25. Kate Says:

    Actually, in my job I’ve been working to help immigrant women with multiple disabilities to get and maintain gainful employment. I’ve been doing this work for over two decades. All of my bosses and supervisors are women. Does that surprise you? Personally, I feel like this is a meaningful contribution to the women in my community as a feminist. If you feel that I did something illegal at the dyke march then go ahead and try to press charges against me. I’m not the least bit concerned. I did nothing illegal. I stood in a public park and watched you scream at some women then walk away. Nothing illegal about that as far as I know.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      Oh I wonder what your job would think about your attempts to silence women’s voices and to obliterate women-only space? I’d be happy to share the video with them. I don’t think they’d be impressed.

  26. Kate Says:

    My boss is also the mental health director of the organization I work for… I know exactly what she’d think of that video and your behavior in it. She’s fully aware of my political views. She respects and admires them. I haven’t silenced any women… I’ve helped to give them a voice and protect their rights in the workplace. I might not have as much money as you, but I still consider myself a good feminist. Also, I’m not working for “the man”. If you really want to “dismantle the patriarchy” maybe you should try to working a job that doesn’t benefit it.

  27. Kate Says:

    Not as CEOs at the huge banks you work for, nope.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      Keep digging yer hole, lady. You look foolish. Because you are derailing from the simple fact that YOU OPPOSE WOMEN-ONLY SPACE AND YOU SUPPORT LESBIAN ERASURE.

      /me slow claps.

      • J sweeney Says:

        I love how you had to give the all feminists are different speech when I told you you had a minority opinion. Yes, there is a large spectrum of ideas and people associated with feminism but it’s disingenuous to use that as a defense for hating trans gender people. Seriously, I would wager less than 5 percent of people who are active feminists have the same trans hate that you do, and that’s being generous. No one gives a fuck about your ideological purity, people who transition obviously needed to in order to make themselves complete. Let them be.

        Also, as a gay person myself, if someone looked completely li

      • bugbrennan Says:

        That’s cool, bro.

      • J sweeney Says:

        Nice argument, and I never said people should have to have sex with pre op trans people. I’m pretty sure that is conventional wisdom. What I am saying is that just because a woman has a penis it doesn’t mean she deserves and less recognition as a woman as someone who was born with a vagina. Why is that so hard to understand? Have the decency to respect people for what they are.

      • bugbrennan Says:

        You ask for decency when you and your community are wholly indecent to the concerns of women. Fuck you.

  28. bugbrennan Says:

    You’re a fool. As if this is a definitive statement. Whatever, Kate.

    • J sweeney Says:

      Also, as a gay man myself, i wouldn’t be attracted to someone who looked like a woman just because they had a penis. Also, while there’s definitely something biological to homosexuality, I would wager it has more to do with how I was socialized. Being gay has as much to do with gender as trans people. Get over it. You just can’t accept the fact that because someone used to have a penis it never made them not a woman. “bio males” is some serious bull shit too, youre saying how bad gender identity is ans yet here you are ascribing all sorts of traits to a person because they might have a y chromosome. You realize that there are many males born without y chromosomes and hat doesnt affect them in any way?

  29. SheilaG Says:

    It sured looked like a threatening video to me– with the trans yelling at Cathy, as she was sitting on the park bench. Hat man was leaning over and yelling into her face, and several other people were also trying to talk all at once. As a woman, I did feel intimidated just watching those males gang up and it looked like it could have gotten violent. Not a good thing for Dykes to have to put up with at all at a Dyke March, where we are not expecting to be attacked by biomales. It was supposedly a lesbian powerful march, and now these invasive vulgar idiots have come on the scene attacking lesbians verbally.

  30. GallusMag Says:

    Kate it’s just damn sad to see you driving a bus over lesbian feminists. You came here to protest that you and your friend’s actions were insufficiently violent. That is fucking sick. And that Cathy didn’t act a proper victim and mouthed back at you and your anti-female boundary-violating aggressive shithole friends. That is just fucking disgusting.
    And hey guess what sister. The AIDS crisis WAS the CAUSE of the: “Lesbian feminism – began its decline in the late 1980s, early 1990s.” DUH. We put all our energy into crisis mode helping our brothers and the Lesbian Feminist movement became sidetracked through no fault of our own. Well guess what. WE’RE BACK NOW. STOP SHITTING ON US. STOP ATTACKING LESBIANS WHO SEEK AN END TO GENDER AND EVERY OTHER FORM OF FEMALE OPPRESSION. Or don’t and we’ll just leave your male-centric queer theory BULLSHIT in the dust.
    Go find someone else to complain to when lesbians don’t fall weakly in a crying heap when you and your dick friends assault them AT A DYKE MARCH. HAHAHA! Idiot.

  31. GallusMag Says:

    AND your claim that there is some hidden footage from the grassy knoll- er I mean dyke march- is the biggest line of shit I ever heard. Put up or shut up liar!

    • Justice Redefined Says:

      Personally I don’t care how much hidden footage there is or what Cathy did or said.

      Males, including trans-women, do not get to even try to intimidate women at a Dyke March.

      That supporters are welcome doesn’t mean it is a gender-queer march. They did not change the name to Gender Queer march, or Dyke and Trans March. It is still a Dyke March. Anyone else attending is still a guest.

  32. GallusMag Says:

    Old Katie and her group of male friends crashing Dyke March with their “anyone can be a dyke, even heteros and men” and “anyone with a hole is a dyke because having a HOLE to stick a dick into is what it’s all about” HAHAHAHAHAHA. Holy shit go back to the eighties cause you must have left your fucking politics there.
    LOOK FORWARD 2 SEEING YA AT DYKE MARCH NEXT YEAR KATIE. We’ll get this mess ALLLLLLLLLLLLL sorted out. ;)

  33. SheilaG Says:

    The Grassy Knoll secret Trans video evidense, ah, that old chestnut. Guess the “real” film hasn’t come back from the factory where they are “doctoring” it or maybe giving it trans-hormone therapy LOL

    So in Trans-land, when many biomen and the handmaidens of the patriarchy gang up on ONE woman at a march that is supposed to be fun and powerful for her, well that’s ok. Last time I went to a Dyke march it was to be with Dykes in the streets, got to be with friends, have a great time of freedom and exhilaration, lots of hugs and love and political passion…. no biomen getting in my face or arguing with me…. it is about Dyke love and freedom.
    But Trans, you know, they have a real problem with lesbians who want space free of male violence, free of verbal attacks, free of attacks on our right to say who we think our real heroines are. Nope, any woman watching tape could feel the threat of it, and I guess the trans prove their maleness because they can’t feel how this feels to women at our own march.

    • Justice Redefined Says:

      Since I watched the video, I have wondered if I have the courage to carry a Jeffery sign at a Dyke March knowing I might have to face that kind of aggression. I am ashamed to admit the answer is no. Having seen that video I would be too afraid to do it unless I was in a group for protection.

      I like to think that had I been there I would have backed up Cathy but it is likely I would have just stood silently shocked, or backed away in fear of potential violence. I am unfortunately easily intimidated by aggression.

      I realize it was one small isolated incident at a march with many attendees. It is still highly damaging. Places like the Dyke March and Mich Fest are being tainted by male violence. The fact that the violence has remained verbal so far is not comforting.

      Patriarchal violence and aggression are being allowed into formally safe spaces for women. At some point women will wake up to the threat because it is only going to grow as transitioning gains in popularity. It will be difficult to put the boundaries back in place but there is no doubt in my mind that it will happen. Women don’t want to see penises in female spaces.

  34. Justice Redefined Says:

    Apparently “trans-inclusive” at the Dyke march actually meant trans-dominant.

    Trans-inclusive means trans people get to decide which lesbians other lesbians are allowed to support.

  35. SheilaG Says:

    Justice, very well put. Trans have had lesbians banned from all kinds of lesbian events, pride festivals, music and film festivals. Lesbian filmmakers have had their movies banned from major LGBT film festivals because the movies highlight lesbian feminist beliefs that gender is what oppresses women. Singers have been banned by the trans mafia at pride events because they play music at Michigan, which to trans means you get to be banned. They prevent women from freedom of expression and earning a living, and this gets a free pass. Just ask the singer “Bitch” about what happened to here!!!

    So we know when they invade, they also ban lesbians from speaking, they prevent radical feminists from organizing and meeting, they make sure Sheila Jeffreys can’t speak at a wide variety of events. They silence lesbian feminist criticism of male to trans ideologies and aggressive harrassment online. They try to ban lesbian feminist books from women’s studies programs, they take over speaking keynote spots at women’s academic conferences, when born women should be served.
    They are men, they act like men…

    So there are serious consequences for lesbians who haven’t sold out to the genderists in terms of academic opportunities etc., and also I have never been at a lesbian event where I was surrounded by yelling people, or invaded in this way. Lesbians should be the ones who determine how we will support other lesbians. Trans can organize their own “inclusive” events, or hey, how about creating hospitality / auxillary groups to support lesbian events rather than their ranting and raving outside the gates of Michigan— why not do something positive and learn to serve and love women– clean up, stop being attacking and aggressive and hostile to our desire for lesbian movies or events that are not for trans to begin with.

  36. SheilaG Says:

    Yes Justice, a Dyke march states who the march is for, everyone else is a guest. This should be clear, and guests who attack or verbally corner a lesbian at a lesbian titled events should be beyond the pale.

    It’s why I don’t want the trans guests there to begin with, and certainly not on a dyke march organizing committee…. geez.

  37. FeistyAmazon Says:

    ” Gay men feel attracted to other men, not specifically their genitalia.” Who are you kidding? I used to have many gay male friends, until I realized just how misogynist and Dyke hating many of them are. Many, not all of course. I’d sit around in the Castro in my younger days with my gay male friends, and what was the ONE thing they went on and on about? Dick size. If he didn’t have a big dick, they simply weren’t interested. I said, “Well, what about personality, or even looks?” Sure they want someone good looking, but they couldn’t give a hoot about personality if they didn’t have a big dick. Now gay dudes are getting a taste of what we’ve been dealing with, with all the FTM’s who are into dick(their former fag hags, and bis), who have male appearing bodies on the outside and vaginas underneath. They don’t want them at their play parties or sex parties, or other events, no matter how much the FTM’s protest how good they are at sucking dick and ‘how being a man isn’t all aabout having a penis.” Well, alot of gay men don’t see it that way, and they’ve been writing in the fagrags about it…just about as much aversion to vaginas as us Lesbians have to ‘ladysticks’ and penises…..

    Uh huh. WBW Dykes all the way!
    -FeistyAmazon

  38. Anita Bigun Says:

    Wow . . . just . . . wow. Have you all gone utterly mad? I’m tempted to call the entire tone of this page hysterical, if only to see you all self combust in self-righteous rage. You’re unlikely to listen,so I’ll repeat this several times, and type slowly . . .

    S e p a r a t e i s n o t e q u a l. S e p a r a t e i s n o t e q u a l. S e p a r a t e i s n o t e q u a l. S e p a r a t e i s n o t e q u a l.

    Did you catch that? Real equality is the ability to meet, organize with, work, and socialize with whomever, whenever according to the mutual autonomous wishes of those PEOPLE. Even in a far better world where that could happen, if you got your way, all you would have succeeded in is ghetto-izing your one small faction. There would still be hetero men, hetero women, bi men, bi women, trans men, trans women, and all the wild, sometimes woolly, and always fantastic other varieties of identity out there, having a grand old time without you.

    Yes, folks of whatever stripe are going to get on your case when you get all high and mighty about your purity, superiority, and right to exclude everybody who isn’t exactly like you. As has been mentioned previously, that’s what hate groups do.

    So all that said, I’m going to assume the “Go ‘way, [random slur latching on to some descriptor from the original post]! You’re an agent of the patriarchy or not lesbian enough or something.” Whatever. You’re wrong about pretty much everything else, might as well be wrong about that too.

    • bugbrennan Says:

      Separate is not equal is a legal phrase. You’re not entitled to have women indulge your delusions.

      Sorry about your dick.

    • michelle Says:

      “Did you catch that? Real equality is the ability to meet, organize with, work, and socialize with whomever, whenever according to the mutual autonomous wishes of those PEOPLE. ”

      And there are no mutual wishes to include trans-whatever into space marked for WBW. Equality does not mean forced and/or shoe-horned inclusion into every single space that might exist anywhere in the world.

      Some females have no objection to the existence of SOME mixed spaces, but they still reserve the ability to have space that is FEMALE-ONLY. There are also some females who simply want nothing to do with men, no matter what or how that male may presently appear. Our right to self-preservation and security allows us the ability to make those decisions to NOT associate with men if we so choose…

      So getting back to your text, quoted above…it would seem that once again we see that the trans-whatever’s message is that ‘what you want does not matter. You MUST include us’ -and that dog don’t hunt.

  39. mich4ever Says:

    “Trans women who identify as lesbians are heterosexual men”
    I thought you accepted trans women as women, just not female. Which, I think you make clear the many ways you don’t see them as female. What are some of the ways you do accept the trans as women?

  40. Rarely Mary Says:

    The trans community cling to the very thing that leads to hate towards them, gender.

    The transphobic says “Your gender and sex don’t align”
    The transgender says “My gender and sex don’t align.” “But but but, my gender and gender identity align! Accept that!”

    They are trying to fight for a caveat on gender instead of fighting against the entire thing.

  41. auto-abolition visa-vis suicide you fucks Says:

    If you want to “abolish gender” then why the affirm a specific, oppressed gender as a pole of liberation when it is in fact a product of domination? Even a dialectical approach would lead to its supersession. Despite the stated desire to “abolish gender” you’re the ones affirming its oppressed category which is the opposite of its negation. Same logic as third worldist BS right here. false critics false critics false critics.

  42. lindsey Says:

    A lot of people are missing one big point, the radfem and trans politics do not have to be in conflict. It is possible to have both.

    Radfem are right that women are oppressed as a class or sex. Ive not met many transwomen who do not agree. Gender roles are restrictive, and femininity should not be the default for woman, the radfems are right there too. Increasing numbers of transwomen are wearing trousers and less make up etc, but have to try and pass. A lot of transpeople want to avoid gender roles too, there was a time when a transwoman had to dress like a 1950′s housewife to get any medical attention and had to be straight.

    Most transmen get exposed to all the talk men do against women and do agree that inequality still exists.

    The trans movement has not destroyed feminism, there are more none trans people then trans people.

    Being trans is about being the wrong sex, its a physical thing. The gender trans find does not match there sex is not the same gender roles radfems oppose. The imposed social gender roles are what cause the inequality, not the internal sense of gender.

    It is not true that if this gender structure was broken down, that trans would no longer exist. What would happen is things would become more clear cut, it would no longer be an internal battle where one asks themself am i a boy or do i just like boy things? If society was not gendered in the way it is, most of what is left would be biology. For trans people its the biology of the body that is the focus, more so then what they are allowed to do with it.

    If someone is the wrong sex, say for example a FTM, the reason they dont like womens clothes wont be because there restrictive or because the fabric is rubbish, they lack pockets, the fashions change too quick, there expensive. These are all valid reasons all things that need to be looked at by feminists, women should have options of the same clothes as men. But for the FTM person, there reason is because wearing them draws attention to everything about there body that is wrong and wish to wear clothes that make them look as close to male as possible. They are not saying skirts are just for women or that men cannot wear pink or peach, they are just saying that at present they have a female body and wearing any of these things is not gonna tell people this is a pre t transman who is breaking gender down by wearing a skirt!

    Radfems should be free to say gender is a social construct, as they are right. There is no biological reason for most of the inequality. Just because some parts of the brain are hardwired to know and work with the sex of the body, does not mean that the current social gender structure is natural. It may be that a lot of people are confusing there incompatability with gender roles with being trans, making radfems right and wrong.

    It is possible to have it all.

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  1. Radfem Reboot Day Three: Reclaiming Women’s Space and Sexuality « smashesthep - August 23, 2012

    [...] Responses to Conflicts Between Lesbian and Transgender Communities. Her talk is reprinted in full here so I won’t summarize it, but I did want to emphasize several important points she brought [...]

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